Original post made on Oct 19, 2022
I would much rather see a doubling down to make our electrical service more reliable. Imagine living in a brand new home and losing power several times a year! No heating, no cooking, no hot water, spoiled food, no ability to charge devices or EV! Can we stop putting more reliance on an inefficient service? Can we improve reliability to our present customers. The State tells us to conserve power by not charging our EVs. How can this be allowed to happen? Can someone put an adult in charge, please!
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“Members of sustainability focused group Carbon Free Palo Alto and 350 Silicon Valley urged the council to use this occasion to also mandate electric space heaters as part of remodels. “ I’m a fan of electric space heaters myself BUT why does the City always allow these outside lobbyists groups to have so much control? Or anything with “Silicon Valley” in the name.
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This fantasy fails to account for exactly how we’ll generate the baseline power supply without fossil fuels- renewables aren’t adequate and ppl are irrational about nuclear. Further, basic math shows the mining (and associated hydrocarbons to mine) needed for the copper, lithium, silver, etc. would need to be exponentially greater than the tonnage already mined from the dawn of time until today, then repeated every 20 years.
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Any idea when these new regulations are effective? Does this mean no chance of converting my wood-burning fireplace into gas logs? With Spare the Air days and no gas fireplaces, is a fireplace now simply a decorative feature? Too many questions, but that’s a lot to unpack!
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"requires homeowners to install heat pump water heaters when their existing ones are replaced" I thought we had until 2030 before this requirement went into effect. Are replacement gas water heaters now not allowed in Palo Alto? What if the homeowner does the replacement themselves?
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Bystander…. you complain about the reliability of our electrical supply. I used to have a UPS for my computer and end up replacing the battery in it twice and we never had a power failure in about 8 years. I’ve lived here for 26 years and I can count the number of failure on one hand. I have to wonder if live in Palo Alto? My experience tells me it more reliable than any place I’ve lived.
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I think I had an hour of power outage a couple years ago because of a mylar balloon. Also had one neighbor lose their house because a gas leak burned it down. All-electric is definitely a way better choice, and even makes financial sense at an individual level with the Inflation Reduction Act combined with the city heat pump hot water heater subsidy.
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I'm making popcorn in my electric microwave oven for this show. Every time there is a doubling down mentioned in an article I am mindful that most blackjack games now use multiple decks so the chances of pulling a win after doubling down are rare. The house (or City, in this case) is the only winner in this game. There must be a catch, and we may not find out until it's too late. So far, as predicted, there is no enforcement of the pod house and its dangerous energy practices. What else will we find out, after the fact, and who is the beneficiary of forcing single family homes to convert to all electric? As for the multi family homes being constructed, I am already familiar with the woeful tale of inefficient appliances and iffy warranties. Of course SFH will have some kind of enforceable warranty, but MFH dwellers will not likely have those luxuries. And the grid... we are making so much electricity ourselves it seems odd that we have so many outages. Carbon neutrality will benefit someone. Who is that someone? I am going to do some research to report later about the statistics on home fires caused by electric space heaters. But I will leave this here for now: "The National Fire Protection Association puts that figure into even starker context, noting that space heaters factor into about 43 percent of home heating-related fires (which includes items like water heaters and fireplaces) and 85 percent of associated deaths." Interesting, eh? Is it wise to let the City Council dictate appliances we use to keep warm in the winter?
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As someone who lived in Palo Alto for 40 years and now lives in the Santa Cruz Mtns, I feel I can weigh in on this all electric debate. We lose power here a lot. Just part of life up here. You plug in your GAS generator and hope its not more than a few days. When you have a woodburning fireplace you can keep your house warm. You can use a GAS grill or bbq to cook. When your house is all electric let me tell you its not fun. EVERYTHING goes out including our WiFi. This is especially hard in the winter. So when people want to ban gas generators and anything gas in the house I don't think its realistic. Not everyone can afford solar. Im lucky that my rental does so I don't lose power hardly ever now but this is not the norm. If I didn't have a gas generator in my other house or a wood burning stove we'd have to leave in the winter without power. Just too cold. How about some of these decision makers join the rest of society and not just the elite before making these types of decisions.
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@No heat ... Electric is not a better choice. The Inflation Reduction Act has done nothing to reduce inflation and converting to electric won't change that. Inflation is the highest it's been in 40 years. The Build Back Better pipedream has resulted in nothing being built and nothing being better. Put it to a vote and let the tax payers decide. City Council was elected to work for the citizens not make radical and costly moves like this without their input. Lastly, build up the grid first so it can handle the increased load across the state. But that makes too much sense.
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Does the new code specify noise limits on the heat-pump heating and hot water systems?\ The outdoor-mounted compressor units of air conditioners can noisy and a heat-pump heater is just an air conditioner operating in reverse. The original heat-pump hot water heaters were fairly quiet but after manufacturers changed designs many new ones are very noisy. This isn't a problem if the water heater is in a garage, but is a bigger problem if it's inside the house. Hopefully the manufacturers will solve the noise problem.
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Since some commenters claim that they have not had multiple power outages at their homes and perhaps only one in 26 years it is time for Gennady to do some research into Palo Alto power outages. It would be interesting to see if there are areas in Palo Alto where power goes out more often than other areas. I would be interested in hearing whether there are areas where the lines are underground and that they get fewer outages than areas where the lines are strung through trees, squirrel highways, with birds and mylar balloons a constant threat? Is this a north of Oregon rarity and only those south of Oregon get several outages each year? If Gennedy could do this research, perhaps he could also look into how much each outage costs to repair, particularly on stormy winter nights when presumably the line crews are on overtime? We are suffering unreliable electrical service! It seems that some either are in denial or forget just how often these happen. Unless of course it is a north/south divide.
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Hooray for the long-suffering, hard-working folks at Carbon Free Palo Alto and 350 Silicon Valley! Several commenters worry about grid outages. We spent $4,000 to install 5 solar panels a few years ago. We bought 2 lithium batteries from REI @ $3,000 each. Now we have back up for blackouts, and provide some (rooftop solar) of our own electricity on normal days. PERHAPS you might not be able to do something similar, but many Palo Altans can. With the tax credits from the Inflation Reduction Act, these actions have become more affordable.
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We've had 3 outages in recent months, and more in the past few years. One of the key aspects of having a first-world economy is reliable access to electricity -- we seem to be moving away from that in Palo Alto. :( D Page provides an example of spending $10k for a (partial?) backup solution. While that seems to work for them, many would find it a burden to spend $10k or more to remedy Palo Alto Utilities' deficiencies. Perhaps we can create a measurement of the costs of Palo Alto prioritizing virtue signaling ahead of functionality.
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Mondoman makes a good point about the virtue signaling. We all need to do what we can to stem the tide of global warming and I think most Palo Altans are "with the program" on that. I'd like to see the Palo Alto CITY Council focus more on the city and less on global issues. It's a tad preposterous to think that our city is going to set THE example for the nation or beyond. We have enormous city problems to solve and pay for. And we often hear about how little bandwidth City Staff has. Small wonder when they are working on global issues. Those issues are important and we must all do what we can, but the purview of City Council is City management. How about we prioritize solving the city's own problems? That would set a terrific example. Let's be a leader in that way.
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A cheaper backup solution is to go to Harbor Freight and buy a 9500 watt gas generator for $2500. This will power most homes. Get two 5 gallon gas cans and store them away from the house. With gas hot water and gas cooktop you can survive for a long time. /marc
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"Get two 5 gallon gas cans and store them away from the house." What could possibly go wrong with that? That solution is only after we have been informed that the apocalypse is indeed happening and the world's grid has gone down and is staying down. If that's the case, hot showers and backyard weenie roasts would be the least of our problems.
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@Annette Hello, most Palo Altans are "good with the program" ?? Becasue why? You drive around in a Prius and/or a Telsa, shop locally, and ride your bike to Costco? Most Palo Altans are not "good with the program". Why? Because most of us do all of the above except, not own a hybrid, or shop at Trader Joe's and sometimes we forget our upcycled bags, because we are far too distracted paying 70% income to rent, and are suffering a massive COVID hangover, or might be hurrying to our service, elder care facility job to change wet depends. Then we clock out and have to rush out, find a parking space on ECR becasue our unit does not provide parking, get up into our micro unit by climbing 4 flights of stairs with 3 bags of groceris, throw together a dinner for our kids and supervise homework and bedtime. Essentially, very few of those making the most ranker about the local climate emergency, while denying Palo Alto sustainable rental home developments have no clue what is like to work a service job, or live poor. Most of us work very hard, every day, feel love and grieve the same as you, grow, and dream, just like you. You won't see stickers on our cars like "Coexist", "Live simply so others can simply live", or "act globally, shop locally" We do all of that with advertising. Yet. We might have a yellow, "baby on board" sticker because we drive with our precious cargo, our biggest act of love and giving, and caring assett that is not monetary but momentary. What I will say. My anger, as all the "signaling" takes its bloated mishaps like 1950's SciFi "the Blob", gets me angry. And though negative, yet. It is a feeling. And my feelings are real & valid. Just like your judgment when I don't produce my bag at the grocery store counter or clean up after my weenie dog's nightly doo. Priorities my dear, priorities. All the froth and no substance halts our shared dream of goodness, kindness, generosity, tolerance and yes, even faith.
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@MyFeelz. My all-electric fire hazard stove is smok'n hot, on low dial 2. 5years and counting. So much for all the electricity-mandated 2017 new build code enforcement. Palo Altans so hunched up in front of AutoCad consulting on Zoom and sending emails that open with words like "unfortunately,", "Circle back" or God, "thanks for your feedback" and can't design anything from the standpoint of human consumption or for humans to work and live. My stove is my piece of equipment to prepare food and feed my kids, every day. Design obsolescence is bigger here than anywhere. Except for attempting to get a mattress delivered in MYC. Whenever I hear the god-awful word "feedback", I immediately think of WWII movies and B17 Bomber radio static feedback while furiously taping the fuel gauge glass. Orin 1880's terms, Molly Hatchet's guitar players getting to close to thier 6 ft Marshall speakers while on stage at the Oakland Coliseum.
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I would like to see the utilities department report that gave council members the confidence that future electricity supplies will be sufficient to handle the steadily increasing demand the ordinance will create. Wait. There isn't one? Who would have thought.
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Ironically, the only way to ensure uninterrupted power to those brand new All Electric dwellings and businesses is with a reliable, back up generator. Of course, natural gas is the best way to power that. I am keeping the natural gas-powered fireplace, fire pit, standard gas water heater, etc. And, of course, I am keeping my Eichler radiant heating, powered by natural gas as well. We are asked to transfer the City's revenues from the PAUD to the General Fund with Measure L. What's going to keep the General Fund afloat without those revenues?
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@Native, I like your introspective delivery. I am all for reviving WWII cliche's especially considering the age bracket most of the moneyed elite of PA were born in. "Loose lips sink ships" -- code for don't reveal what you really stand for until you get voted into office. "The fruits of victory are tumbling into our mouths too quickly." Also code, meaning don't count your chickens before they're hatched, especially when your itty bitty city is planning on singlehandedly winning the climate crisis war. And the penultimate classic cliche since the beginning of time but popular during WWII, "They’re overfed, overpaid, overdressed... and over here" -- they're here TOO. The cards have been dealt, the last card is about to be turned, revealing the winner of the big pot. It's not me and it's not you, But the meek shall inherit the earth, and from the looks of things it may come sooner than we think. The problem is not the electrification of any city. It's the overconfidence that we can somehow manage the earth's resources. We have proven to be dismal stewards of natural resources, especially here in the US and here in PA. I am doing everything I can to conserve those resources and I know you are too. I am not thinking for only myself, but for the next generation. Something most baby boomers don't care about. Last quote: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."
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I will support electrification as soon as the environmentalists and the people who voted for this stupid idea go all electric first. That includes your car. I'm waiting.
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What's missing from all the discussions I've seen on electrification is the financial cost and red tape involved in the process for upgrading electrical service. Most houses in Palo Alto currently support 100-200 amps. If you convert to all electric, including power for your state mandated electric car, you will most likely need 400 amps. New construction can be designed accordingly, but existing homeowners need to upgrade, which requires a permit from the city. Between the cost of the new box (if you can find one given there is currently a shortage), the cost of the permits, and the time the city will take to approve your permit application, this ends up being a very costly (easily $20K) proposition even before you get your car charger and your heat pump. The least the city could do is streamline the permit process and hire more people to review permit applications. Rebates to help defray the cost would also help.
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2017 Mayfield Place is "all electric" and it goes down all the time. My kitchen stove is my mainstay for cooking food for my children. The coils and elements are singing out. What happened to union-paid contract work? The City and/or Stanford grossly overlooked codes and the safety of people for their profit margin.
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@MyFeelz Have you seen the locally grown, all-electric "Victory Garden" yet?
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@Native, I have only seen photos. Electricity is a newfangled idea in my family set on both sides. My mother never saw electric lights until she started school. My father did, because they had it at work (yay, child labor laws)and school. So from a city kid and a farm kid who didn't have electricity, they saw all those gadgets as if they were going to a museum every day. My mother never had a washing machine until 1965, and the dryer came later in 1968. What it taught us as kids was not to take energy for granted and use it conservatively because it wasn't free. It was more than just "they were Depression babies" -- it was that those babies were the last generation in America who would ever know what living without electricity was like. Now, as a society, we are addicted to electricity and energy in all forms. Not only that but now a city wants to mandate what sources we can use for energy. Rachel Carson wrote in 1962 about how we were killing the earth with chemicals, and when combined with the pillage of non-renewable energy we sealed our fate. I have lived off the grid, and could do it indefinitely if necessary. But it's not going to save the planet. We would ALL have to do it, and put more back into the earth than we've taken out of it. So, as I sit here typing on my old laptop and sending this message through a non-fiber ISP, I am fully prepared for what would happen if suddenly the grid went down forever. Even the Amish use electricity (shhhh... that's a secret). And they drive cars. And they eat at McDonald's. They're just better prepared than most for the day when the grid fails permanently.
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